Question from Carol - Family connection between Kathryn Howard and Elizabeth II
Is there a family connection between Kathryn Howard and Elizabeth II?
17 comments:
Anonymous
said...
Yes. They have a common pair of great-grandparents. Elizabeth I's maternal grandmother was Elizabeth Howard, who was herself a daughter of the 2nd Duke of Norfolk, Thomas Howard (d. 1524) and his wife Elizabeth Tilney. One of Thomas' younger sons, and therefore Elizabeth Howard's brother, was Edmund Howard, Katherine Howard's father. Thus Katherine Howard was both Elizabeth's step-mother and her maternal great-aunt.
Ooops.... profuse apologies! I mis-read the roman numeral and just assumed you meant Elizabeth I, not II. My fault. Nonetheless, I would bet anything that a connection can be found, however distant. I'll leave it to the genealogy enthusiasts to do that extensive digging.
There is probably a closer relation, but off the top of my head, I know that they can both trace their descent from Edward I. But I wouldn't be surprised if a line of Elizabeth II's descent includes a Howard back there somewhere.
There is a connection through the Queen's grandmother, Nina Cavendish-Bentinck. The Bentinck family originated with William III's favorite, Hans-Willem Bentinck, who married Anne Villiers, the granddaughter of Theophilus Howard, who was himself the great-grandson of Henry Howard, Earl of Surrey, "Henry VIII's Last Victim" (as a recent book title describes him) and first cousin to Kathryn Howard. A tenuous connection, but possibly there are others in the Queen's ancestry.
Although I think most historians now discount Mary Carey's children being sired by Henry, it would be nice to think that some of Henry's own DNA still rules England.
But I expect he would consider that poor consolation. He wanted a legitimate son!
There are a few historians, including myself, who believe that Mary Boleyn's Carey children were indeed the king's. The birth dates, the coinciding gifts to William Carey, contemporary comments, Henry 8's subsequent care for these two children, recurring talk of marrying their progeny first to Mary QoS and later to James VI all convince me they were royal bastards.
Foose - which site did you use to find the link between Elizabeth II and Mary Carey? Thanks - kb
kb, it is interesting what you say about the evidence supporting the Carey children's being royal bastards. I did not know there was talk about their children marrying into the Scottish royal family -- I focused more on Catherine Carey's and Henry Carey's marriages, which weren't particularly grand or important.
Per your query, I found my quarry on thePeerage.com after rootling through countless matrilineal thickets. Briefly, start with the Queen's grandmother again, Nina Cavendish-Bentinck. Go directly back to her great-grandfather, William Henry Cavendish Bentinck, Duke of Portland, who married Dorothy Cavendish.
Dorothy Cavendish is the daughter of Charlotte Elizabeth Boyle, Baroness Clifford.
Charlotte Elizabeth Boyle is the daughter of Lady Dorothy Savile.
Dorothy Savile is the daughter of Lady Mary Finch.
Mary Finch is the daughter of Lady Essex Rich (AHA! I cried aloud.)
Essex Rich is the daughter of Robert Rich and Anne Cheeke. From here you can go one of two ways, as they are cousins:
1 - Robert Rich is the son of Robert Rich, who is the son of Penelope Devereux, who is the daughter of Lettice Knollys, who is the daughter of Mary Boleyn Carey.
2 - Anne Cheeke is the daughter of Essex Rich, the daughter of Penelope Devereux, etc.
Frustratingly, neither this site nor the tudorplace.com.ar site I mentioned have information on the descendants of Kathryn Howard's siblings. There may be a closer relationship between the Queen and Kathryn than the connections I have indicated!
I guess we will never know if one or both Mary Careys children were Henrys but the thing is nobody mentions that William Carey was actually Henrys cousin and that Elizabeth Boleyn was related to the Howard family and they had red hair, also Henry liked to keep his relationships short, he tired of Anne when they were married for 3 years for example Someone said to me that because they were cousins and Henry favoured William he gave him presents and also William was good at sport like Henry and that might be why Henry liked him and also if Henry let his mistress marry his cousin then he must have tired of her and it shows also that he liked William
17 comments:
Yes. They have a common pair of great-grandparents. Elizabeth I's maternal grandmother was Elizabeth Howard, who was herself a daughter of the 2nd Duke of Norfolk, Thomas Howard (d. 1524) and his wife Elizabeth Tilney. One of Thomas' younger sons, and therefore Elizabeth Howard's brother, was Edmund Howard, Katherine Howard's father. Thus Katherine Howard was both Elizabeth's step-mother and her maternal great-aunt.
Ooops.... profuse apologies! I mis-read the roman numeral and just assumed you meant Elizabeth I, not II. My fault. Nonetheless, I would bet anything that a connection can be found, however distant. I'll leave it to the genealogy enthusiasts to do that extensive digging.
There is probably a closer relation, but off the top of my head, I know that they can both trace their descent from Edward I. But I wouldn't be surprised if a line of Elizabeth II's descent includes a Howard back there somewhere.
Let me clarify what I wrote... that should be "a line that Elizabeth II is descendant from includes a Howard back there somewhere".
There is a connection through the Queen's grandmother, Nina Cavendish-Bentinck. The Bentinck family originated with William III's favorite, Hans-Willem Bentinck, who married Anne Villiers, the granddaughter of Theophilus Howard, who was himself the great-grandson of Henry Howard, Earl of Surrey, "Henry VIII's Last Victim" (as a recent book title describes him) and first cousin to Kathryn Howard. A tenuous connection, but possibly there are others in the Queen's ancestry.
Well done, Foose!
Thank you, phd historian! It was a pleasure doing the research.
ThePeerage.com and tudorplace.com.ar are great places to do genealogy hunts on Tudor personalities.
This just in -- the Queen is also descended from Anne Boleyn's sister Mary Carey!
AND - Catherine Howard was 1st cousin to Mary Boleyn Carey. Their grandparents were Thomas Howard, 2nd duke of Norfolk and Elizabeth Tilney Howard.
Although I think most historians now discount Mary Carey's children being sired by Henry, it would be nice to think that some of Henry's own DNA still rules England.
But I expect he would consider that poor consolation. He wanted a legitimate son!
There are a few historians, including myself, who believe that Mary Boleyn's Carey children were indeed the king's. The birth dates, the coinciding gifts to William Carey, contemporary comments, Henry 8's subsequent care for these two children, recurring talk of marrying their progeny first to Mary QoS and later to James VI all convince me they were royal bastards.
Foose - which site did you use to find the link between Elizabeth II and Mary Carey? Thanks - kb
kb, it is interesting what you say about the evidence supporting the Carey children's being royal bastards. I did not know there was talk about their children marrying into the Scottish royal family -- I focused more on Catherine Carey's and Henry Carey's marriages, which weren't particularly grand or important.
Per your query, I found my quarry on thePeerage.com after rootling through countless matrilineal thickets. Briefly, start with the Queen's grandmother again, Nina Cavendish-Bentinck. Go directly back to her great-grandfather, William Henry Cavendish Bentinck, Duke of Portland, who married Dorothy Cavendish.
Dorothy Cavendish is the daughter of Charlotte Elizabeth Boyle, Baroness Clifford.
Charlotte Elizabeth Boyle is the daughter of Lady Dorothy Savile.
Dorothy Savile is the daughter of Lady Mary Finch.
Mary Finch is the daughter of Lady Essex Rich (AHA! I cried aloud.)
Essex Rich is the daughter of Robert Rich and Anne Cheeke. From here you can go one of two ways, as they are cousins:
1 - Robert Rich is the son of Robert Rich, who is the son of Penelope Devereux, who is the daughter of Lettice Knollys, who is the daughter of Mary Boleyn Carey.
2 - Anne Cheeke is the daughter of Essex Rich, the daughter of Penelope Devereux, etc.
Frustratingly, neither this site nor the tudorplace.com.ar site I mentioned have information on the descendants of Kathryn Howard's siblings. There may be a closer relationship between the Queen and Kathryn than the connections I have indicated!
Oops, I skipped listing Catherine Carey in between Lettice Knollys and Mary Boleyn Carey ... sorry!
Thanks Foose
I found a list on ancestors from Elizabeth II to William I, It may be a good was to start. Go to...
google "descents of ELizabeth II from William I"(wikipedia)
Wow, foose. That was confusing. But do you think there is any way that Robin Dudley and Kathryn Howard could have met?
I guess we will never know if one or both Mary Careys children were Henrys but the thing is nobody mentions that William Carey was actually Henrys cousin and that Elizabeth Boleyn was related to the Howard family and they had red hair, also Henry liked to keep his relationships short, he tired of Anne when they were married for 3 years for example
Someone said to me that because they were cousins and Henry favoured William he gave him presents and also William was good at sport like Henry and that might be why Henry liked him and also if Henry let his mistress marry his cousin then he must have tired of her and it shows also that he liked William
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