Sunday, September 14, 2008

Question from KB - More on John Perrot

I am interested to know what the community thinks about Sir John Perrot's relationship with Henry VIII; whether he was Elizabeth's half-brother or not.

I have him listed as the son of Thomas Perrot and Mary Berkeley. I know very little else about him except that his grandson Thomas married Dorothy Devereux, daughter of Lettice Knolls Devereux and sister to Penelope Devereux Rich.

So I geuss the question is whether Mary Berkeley was Henry VIII's mistress 8-10 months before John's birth - a date I don't have to hand.

Any information, thoughts or trivia would be welcome. Thanks.

[Ed. note - This has sort of already been addressed, but I don't think we've had much discussion on John himself.]

Previous threads:
http://tudorhistory.org/queryblog/2007/05/question-from-marcy-henry-viii-son-by.html
http://tudorhistory.org/queryblog/2008/05/question-from-elizabeth-more-possible.html

12 comments:

kb said...

Lara -
Thank you for posting the previous threads. I should have known to go looking there first.

I am intrigued by stray comments in the records of John Perrot claiming the relationship.

PhD Historian said...

I assume, KB, that you have read the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography entry on Perrot? In that article, Roger Turvey states categorically that the story of a relationship between Mary Berkeley and Henry VIII is a myth. You might want to access Turvey's book about Perrot, "The Treason and Trial of Sir John Perrot" (Univ of Wales Press, 2005), if you have not already done so.

kb said...

Thank you for the reference, I didn't know of it. Yes, I have read the ODNB article on him but am still a bit fuzzy on some other references that have him claiming kinship. It's possible all those references derive from Naunton's Fragmenta Regalia - I'm just not clear enough yet.

Am I reading the dates wrong? Or is it possible that Mary Berkeley was old enough to be H8's mistress even if the record does not support this notion?

PhD Historian said...

If Mary Berkeley was born in 1511, she would have been old enough to be his mistress any time after about 1527-1530 (age 16-19). Son John Perrot was born in 1528. So their dates correlate, and the late 1520s is a period in which Henry was at his most "active." But I tend to trust Turvey when he says it is all a myth.

kb said...

I think the rumour must be nearly wholly derived from Naunton.

Thank you for the comments and references

Amateur said...

All of Henry's offspring showed favour to Perrot. Edward paid his debts, Mary granted him Carew castle in spite of his Protestantism, and Elizabeth gave him jewels, and loving messages and later put up with a lot from him.

Amateur said...

Perrot was certainly supported at various times by all Henry VIII's offspring - Edward paid his debts and looked up to him, Mary granted him Carew castle in spite of his protestantism, and Elizabeth gave him jewels and favours, and put up with a lot from him.

Snoberrys@Aol.com said...

I have just now discovered this site, and I am ecstatic because I trace my maternal family tree to:
11 7.33 PierrePerrot 1654-
7.33 m. 1685
11 7.33 Geneviève Duclos
This man pops up in New France, seemingly out of nowhere. I have been unable to find any lead to a potential Perrot of that period. Might it be possible for anyone reading this to be able to piece a connection between my Pierre Perrot and John Perrot's son, perhaps, or a relative? I would be immensely grateful.
Giles LaFreniere-Desrosiers
Snoberrys@Aol.com

another amateur said...

I don't know what to believe.

'[I]t is very positively asserted that Perrott laid claim to a "left-handed" relationship to the Queen at her "father's side." Sir John Perrott was a man of gigantic frame, and said "to be very like King Hal." In voice and temper he closely resembled the Tudor family.'

(Found on Google Books, S. Hubert Burke's 'Historical portraits of the Tudor dynasty and the reformation period, Volume 4', page 238, 1887)

'On his return to the Tower after his trial, he [Perrot] said, with oaths and fury, to the Lieutenant, Sir Owen Hopton, "What! will the Queen [Elizabeth] suffer her brother to be offered up as a sacrifice to the envy of my strutting adversaries?"'

(From Doyne Courtenay Bell's 'Notices of the historic persons buried in the chapel of St. Peter ad Vincula ...' pages 203-204, 1877)

Here's my current, unprofessional opinion: From my very brief Internet research it's clear to me that Perrot himself believed that he was the king's bastard. He is described as an honest man by all of the accounts I have read, and assuming that's true, he wouldn't have claimed to be the Queen's "left-handed" brother unless he honestly believed that he was.

Of course, just because Perrot was convinced that he was a royal bastard, doesn't mean that he necessarily was. He could have been wrong about his own paternity.

I'm just looking at this aspect of the issue: the fact that Perrot himself appears to have believed the rumors.

Anonymous said...

I dont think he was King Henry s son wasn't 1528 the year that King Henry was pursuing Anne Boleyn maybe he could be but its unlikely as Henry was so besotted with Anne at the time as his letters to her show. I am not sure why he thought he was King Henry s but he was human listened to rumors that weren't true started to believe them and went a bit crazy doing reckless things the poor man

I think that a lot of nobility at that time were related to each other so they may have looked similar I think that Anne Boleyn looked similar to the Tudors but she was only distantly related also Anne Boleyn and Katherine Howard were cousins, I think Henry Percy was the first cousin of Sir William Carey and I think Jane Seymour was a cousin of King Henry's too

Stranger in Paradise said...

It might be of interest to know that the Court & Edward VI did treat him like family, indeed he was one of four men to hold the canopy over Elizabeth I as she made her way to the coronation. In the days before the coronation he participated in the Passion plays explaining that Elizabeth was Virtue and received the Holy Bible from him, the alleged 1/2 brother as NOT VIRTUE in play or Allegory during her festivities leading to her full recognition as Queen of England. He sat in the Family pew at the Coronation and his mother : Mary Berkley, Perrot-Pughe was the daughter of Henry VII treasurer, Maurice Berkleyso her relationship to the Royal Tudor's was established Early in King Henry's Life and was therefore likely on hand for visitation outside the general court's knowledge. afterall, even a King can find a few minutes to himself and a willing partner.
His demeanor aside, there is now Evidence by DNA that shows his last son John Perrot born about 1590 by Sybil Johns- Perrot, survived his father's death in the Tower 1591, and made his way to America under the sponsorship of one Daniel Gookins of Virginia 1623. This line of sons survives to this day with haplogroup I-1 M253 but my own match breaks away after marker 23 of the first 25. So my DNA is not from Sir JOhn as I first thought 5 years ago. My own match is Sutton Dudley 59/67 markers to proved 2nd cousin and 5th cousins of Sir Robert Dudley 1533.
A genealogical site on line recently moved John Perrot 1590 from being a son to and unknown status. That's because they are very, very careful as they should be. The lines still living in America are from Dr. Richard Perrot and Robert Perrot who do not have the exact Same DNA thus their matches indicate an UNCLE of Sir John Perrot may have been a companion of Prunella while her husband was toiling away in America where he had success and later sent for her. Their sons stayed in England until their Educations were complete. The only Perrot's with this Haplogroup of I-1 have similar matches the other Tudors known to be NON Royal persons. So more high level work is required to establish the American branch to the Tudors Royal. How would Royal Tudor's inherit a Norman/French Haplogroup ? See the Capture of The Tudor Brothers in Wales and their wives 1400 Easter by Henry Bolingbroke, 3 year widower who rode to supress the Glendower uprising against his allay Ferris. D. Charles Rice 1948 Nebraska Rice's

Stranger in Paradise said...

Post Script to previous Post: Mary Berkley Perrot-Pughe was the grand daughter of Maurice Berkley not the Daughter. sorry for that failure in recollection Stranger in Paradise.