Monday, February 08, 2010

Question from Jessica - Lord's Prayer in England

I am curious about the Lord's Prayer in England. Was it changed during the 1530s, and if so, how? How was it phrased before this time? Thanks!


Anonymous said...

I believe Henry added "For the Kingdom, the power and the glory are yours, Lord God, now and forever." The end of the Lord's prayer as it is said today.

Jacque said...

That end part of the Lord's Prayer appears in some Greek manuscripts of the Gospel of Matthew in the first century. Because it is only contained in some manuscripts and not others, it always varies as to whether or not the "kingdom, power and glory" part is put on the end. I believe that in the 1530s, they were still reciting the Lord's Prayer only in Latin, not English. I think, (but I could be wrong about this) that traditionally those lines were not part of the Latin version. If that is the case, then I doubt that Henry VIII would have added the last part to be said in his church.

Anonymous said...

You have piqued my interest, Jacque. From what I have read Henry VIII did add this because he liked it and of course he was such an ego maniac he would LOVE to add something to The Lord's Prayer. I suppose I will have to research this further. I will let you know what i find out! Thanks!

Alexandra said...

I did a bit of digging, and here's what I found:

The "For thine is the kingdom..." part (aka the doxology) is not included in the earliest texts, but it was used long before any of the King Henrys. I know it's wikipedia, and not up to scholarly par etc. etc., but it is a useful starting point:

I also found the 1549 version of the Book of Common Prayer, and the part of the prayer that I found does not include the doxology.

To find the text of the prayer, hit ctrl+f and type in the first few words of the prayer. The site I just linked has other versions of the Book of Common Prayer as well, so you can compare and contrast if you so desire.

Finally, on Google Books I found a piece on the translation of the prayer in the 1530s. It's from The Lord's prayer: a text in tradition By Kenneth W. Stevenson, page 173.

Hope this helps!

Rissy Anne said...

This is going to be the longest answer ever, but I'm going to be as precise as I can. It is NOT included in St. Jerome's Vulgate. However, it was contained in the manuscripts of the Liturgy of the Eucharist. Something that was common in early Christianity was to take a prayer and add a doxology to it. I believe it IS found in the Didache. When the bible was compiled they meant it to be used as a canon for Liturgy, but it wasn't necessary exactly what they used in Church. So generally speaking you probably aren't going to find the Doxology in most of the original texts. But could you? Maybe, I know there were almost 73 copies of will one copy have a Doxology? If someone put it there because it was used in the Liturgy of the Eucharist. But it probably wasn't part of the original Lord's Supper prayer. Because it's a hymn. And those types of hymns, ESPECIALLY, that particular one was constantly added to the ending of prayers. So, the fact that it is present in the liturgy, but not in any of the original sources that I know, says to me that it was probably used in following the Lords Prayer in the Liturgy of the Eucharist from a very early time. And King Henry VII liked it so much and wanted to show how he was head of the church so he decided that it should forever be permanently affixed to the end of the prayer. And I'm sure the people underneath him were able to find a way to say..."Hey, yeah, Jesus could have said that!!! Look it IS in the Didache!" I mean, it was Henry VII!

blue on blue said...

I was born and raised in Scotland, now living in the USA. I don't know about how they say the Lord's Prayer in England but in Scotland and Ireland, the end piece, "for thine is the kingdom" etc. is never recited. Why, because just look what Henry the Viii signified, especially to the Scots. He murdered so many people and his daughter, continued his murderous ways when she murdered our Queen, Mary Queen of Scots. I will never add this to the end of the Our Father, and I cringe each time I go to church and hear this recited. Here, we are saying the words of a murderer. Wake up people, do you really think Our Lord God would want this said? Rome ignored my letters when i requested that this be removed. So much for listening to the people.