Saturday, May 12, 2007

Question from Marcy - Henry VIII son by Mary Berkeley (Perrot)?

Did Henry VIII father a child by Mary Berkeley, who took her husband's name Perrot? I understand he later became Sir John Perrot. Thanks

15 comments:

PhD Historian said...

The actual legend is that Mary Berkeley Perrot (d. 1586), wife of Thomas Perrot (d. 1531) had an affair with Henry VIII in about 1527 and subsequently gave birth to her third son, John Perrot, later Sir John and (after 1571) Lord Deputy of Ireland. That legend, hwoever, has been shown to be untrue.
Sir John Perrot's own wives were Ann Cheyney (d. 1553), Jane Prust (d. 1593). He had a large number of children, both legitimate by his two wives and illegitimate by a succession of mistresses, but all were born after Henry VIII's death in January 1547. Neither of his wives, Ann nor Jane, were mistresses of Henry VIII.

Anonymous said...

WHICH "legend... has been shown to be untrue"? That Mary B ever had an affair with H8? If this, how has this been shown? I believe John Perrot and his sister Anne Elizabeth Perrot were born to Mary about 1524/1525. But Mary and Thomas Perrot were not married until 1527, so it stands to reason that these two children (her 2nd and 3rd children), although (politely) carrying Perrot's surname, may not have biologically belonged to Perrot, and could have been H8's offspring. I've read here that Sir John Perrot was favored by other of the King's offspring, And himself believed he was the King's bastard son. (Mary's first child, John Stukley may have also taken the Perrot name.)

Also, why do you bother to say that neither of Sir John's (Mary's son) wives were mistresses of H8? Were they ever rumored to be such? They were a generation younger, and I have never heard such a rumor.

Carmen

Anonymous said...

PhD Historian does not present a convincing case, or indeed any case at all.

Anonymous said...

I have three DNA distant cousins ( and more to come, almost) in a direct line to Queen Consort Elisabeth Woodville , married with King Edward of York. One cousin is through Henry VIII and Mary Berkeley, the line goes down to Sir John Perrot.
The DNA cousins are related through my mother, who's mothers name was Aquina. They are also related through each other.
The other cousin goes through James Stewart line and the thirth cousin through Grey/Gray line.( Sir John Grey)

Since I also have more Stewart/Stuart DNA cousins, Grey/Gray DNA cousins and Kennedy, I hope I can find more of them who fit in this line.

Cathy D. Cessna RDH MPA CFRE ACFRE said...

I find myself in the same situation, where DNA matches to Thomas Perrot are confirmed through my Gray/Grey lineage; as well as the Collins/Stewart lines. What proof do we have? Are their DNA samples available for comparison?

Donna Baize said...

Donna
I also am descendent of Mary Berkeley and her son John Perot, and I do think Heny VIII was the biological father. However, I am also related to Henry Tudor VII and to Elizabeth, day. Of King Edward IV and Elizabeth woodville. Is there a DNA test to show any connection between Henry VIII and John Perot as his son.

PackerFan said...

I do not know about the dna to prove that Henry VII was John Perot's father. I would like to know, if anyone has that information they can share. I know that Richard III, whose body was found in a parking lot about 4 years ago, has been proven that his father, the king was not his biological father. I am also related to Edward IV and Elizabeth, In fact, I am related to every royal crown of Europe. Thank you for your comment. Let me know if you find out any information for us to verify.
Donna

Dale C. Rice said...

John Parrot Jr. born 1590 to Sibil Johns Perrot and mother of Sir James Perrot and William Perrot the organist had a son called John Perrot Jr. born about 1590 so delivered before Sir John's Attainder and clapped into the Tower for speaking ill of his 1/2 sister the Queen Elizabeth I.

As stated before on another thread the entire court and all the main family members treated Sir John as the King's Bastard son. King Edward knighted him paid his debts, Queen Mary gave him lands and castles seeking his support, and Elizabeth I relied upon him with the Spanish Invasion as an Admiral of the Fleet and sent him to quell the IRISH rebellion which he did by hanging over 500 men there. He rebuilt parts of Carew Castle with funds derived from land grants and tenaments given to him by the various crowns.

His son John Perrot Jr married a woman known as PRUNELLA Perrot and in 1623 made his way to Virginia under the auspices of one Daniel Gookins. His wife was brought over 1630 and the boys Robert and Richard Perrot stayed in England to complete their educations. Both Robert and Richard Perrot have left DNA records behind in the descendants...Robert Perrot is a 7th cousin and links up to my family in America the Rices as Quakers. That is essential to understand because His other Brother known as John PERRATT II after the River Perrat has a son named Perrot ap Rice 1598 born to Margaret Lovelace-Mercer. That boy grew up to be the JOHN PERROT THE QUAKER and Pope Coverter according the testimony of Samuel G. Rice 1978 3 mos. before he died. Perrot ap Rice left Wales oweing 670 lbs sterling and fled to America where he started over in life as a trader of goods with Native people on the James River with his father John Perratt 1565 the alleged son of Sir RObert Dudley. The DNA story shows that Robert Son of John Perrot Jr and Prunella is a 12/12 match to my own DNA his 7th cousin, but begins to change as one would expect a cousin line would after marker 23 on the 25 marker test.

This can only mean that the two lines were joined as cousins back around 880 AD with Le Teuton Sutton and Baldwin II Strong Arm Duke of Flanders. So DNA tells us the two lines are Cousins back to 1400 when Owen Tudor was born to HENRY IV and had the Tudor brother's cornered at Conway Castle Easter of that year. As you know: Owen Tudor was the squire to Henry V and major domo to the Queen Catherine of France. That line of Tudor Descent is the Norman cousin line of Peratt II alleged son of Sir Robert Dudley and an Unknown woman, But raised by Sir John Perrot with his two other illegitimate sons by foster sister SYBIL JOHNS PERROT. See his oxinesis at Grey's inn 1580 along with named brothers William and Sir James of Havorford West. D. Charles Rice 9th ggson of Sir Robert Dudley via Perrot ap Rice 1598 and Proved 6th great grandfather John RIce of East ANGLIA and Dedham Ma. raised by reverend JOHN ALLIN Puritan minister.

Donna Baize said...

I an also related to every royal crown of Europe, and to the first and early Euro settlers in Virginia. So we are cousins criss crossing.

Donna Baize said...

And it Henry VIII Who is suppose to be father of John Perot.

Unknown said...

Would you mind disclosing your haplogroup, Dale ?

tomass4king said...

By all means: However I am Norman French cousin line to Sir John Perrot 1528. His father being Henry VIII derives from the capture of the Tudor Brothers at Conway castle set free without fireing an arrow in anger. The one arrow that was shot was Bollingbroke IV to the Quiver of Margared Ferch Daffid and Owen Tudor was born 9 mos. Later In January 1400. That is the reason he was brought to court to serve Henry V and Henry IV as a steward. Later he took the position of Queens Wardrobe and that French Norman blood is cousin to mine down from Le Teuton's Sutton's line to Tudor and mine from Baldwin II. Both are i-1 M253 but we are cousin lines as De Coursey sister of Baldwin married Le Teuton Sutton. So yes: I match Sir John Perrot in a genaral sense but we don't share exact DNA as required. But is within the normal range of cousins of the same family . If Sir John Perrot had been of Thomas Perrot his blood line would have Been R1b like other French Perrots. It is not. Sir John and all the bastard sons of Henry VIII share the Bolling broke version of Le Teuton Suttin/ Rollo William the Conquorer line.
D. Charles Rice on Face Book to see photo evidence.

Unknown said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Dale C. Rice said...

Good news: We can now close the chapter of who the father of John Rice of Dedham, Ma. 1624. He was fathered by the great-grandson of Henry VIII Tudor King. We know because working backward from proved 6th ggfather to Perrot ap Rice 1598 son of Margaret Mercer-Lovelace. Daughter of Sir John Perrot and Johanna Lovelace as shown on the tomb of Margaret ap Rice in Tenby Wales Church: COE Mary the Virgina the shield above Margaret's tomb shows scarlet only for her mother's side - Lovelace and Berkley, Pughe, Perrot, and Roache for the sinister or father's side. Meaning John Perrot was her father despite being raised in the home of William Mercer wales. Johanna and William were contemporaries of Sir John Perrot, Who's mother is known to be the granddaughter of the First Treasurer of Henry VII one Wm. Berkley. Thus Mary Berkly was known to the Tudors despite her less than royal lineage. The Kings of England both Henry VIII and Edward VI granted Sir John with preferment and an admiralty in the Navy. Both Queens Mary and Elizabeth I treated John Perrot 1527 as their 1/2 brother and gave him lands and castle at Carew in 1583 to sway his support for MARY during her assention crisis. Thus modern folks who try to change history by saying his biographer debunked this or that are being silly. The Queen had him quell the uprising in Ireland when she needed his help and he likewise was seated in the family section at Elizabeth's coronation and held her canopy as she walked to her coronation. Anyone saying otherwise is saying 4 Monarch could not tell an imposter from one of their own. DCR 1948

Anonymous said...

The Blood line of Tudor Kings and Queens has been set right by the establishment of 3 Tudor illegitimate sons: Dr. Richard Edwardes/by Agness Blewitt tr aced father to son to the College President in Midwest is I-1 Haplogroup. So is Sir John Perrot 1527-28 by Mary Berkley Perrot-Pughe (granddaughter of Maurice de Berkley treasurer to Henry VII. Sons by Sir John emanate at Thomas Perrot born to Mary Cheney of the Sinque Ports the legitimate heir his down line are all I-1 to living persons today and his son by common law wife Sybil Johns Perrot (fostered sister with Sir John) John Perrot Jr. 1590 ca + Prunella Perrot= son Robert Perrot I-1 Haplogroup to living descendants today. Thomas Stuckley born to Lady Jane Pollard-Pruitt has living descendants I-1 including my 3rd cousin H.S. Rice who's mother 3rd is Ida Sweet 3 great grandauther of Lady Jane Pollard mother of Stuckley. My line is the cousin line of Tudor which is established as a branch of Le Teuton de Sutton 875 AD who married the sister of my 35th great grandfather BALDWIN II of Flanders. We cousins then each share the haplogroup I-1 French Norman.

To get a grip on Sir John Perrot's son who was indentured because of famiy troubles after his father was attained in 1590 to one Daniel Gookins of Virginia: He brought Prunella and son Robert to Virginia in 1630 after a 7 year indenure was worked off. The Sons of Robert Perrot and my own ancestor line are identical up throuh marker 18 then differ across the next 37 markers by about 8 locations so not a close relative....that means you can test both my line and Sir John's Legitimate son Thoms and John and all three have I-1 French Norman Blood. As to my lineage we find Perrot ap Rice 1598 son of Margaret Mercer daughter of Sir John Perrot and Johnanna Lovelace as the name connection to Rice and Perrot. Daughters don't transmit their father's Y chromosome because they have 2 x and no Y. Perrot ap Rices son is John Rice of Dedham Ma 1624 and his DNA is found downline in Virginia at 23/25 and 37/37 in the son of Rice Hughes (the name Perrot ap Rice used was his brother a cavallier in King Charles Army while hiding out from Cromwell )...The match means that Perrot ap Rice 1598 matches the King's Sons or suspected sons on both sides of the Atlantic ast son Thomas Price of Liether who came to England in 1652 with the money advance by his mother. He received his inheritence early and went to Virginia where his father Rice Hughes (aka Perrot apr Rice) was grantd 200 acres on March 2, 1652 for 4 headrights 50 acres ea. This fact is disputed that Thomas Price of Liether disappeared from Wales after his early inheritence and did not surface agein until 1656 when he was sued for a small sum by family...ostensibly carrying out trade for his father who sold the trading post to the Hooe1 Family and left his native woman behind in England after "Turning over a new leaf" as the Quaker John Rice Pope Converter landing in Bedlam Prison in 1656 to 1660. The sons by native woman Necktie of Virginia are Robert Hughes and Jessie hughes and match my DNA exactly with zerot distance. Thus we can establish the likely linage from Henry VIII to Sir John Perrot to Margaret Mercer Rice to Perrot ap Rice to Thomas Price of Liether his son by Pricilla Littleton and sons John Rice 1624 my prove 6th ggfather and the boys Jessie and Robert Hughes as all the same zero distance haplogroup I-1 M253 as the Cousin line to Tudor Kings and Queens and the Man John Perrot the Quaker is the same person as Perrot ap Rice 1598 and John Rice Hughes which he used in Virgina. D. Charles Rice 1948 family investigator for University Chief of Police