Lord Thomas Howard (1511-1537), son of the 2nd Duke of Norfolk Thomas Howard by Agnes Tilney, apparently by some sources had an affair with Margaret Douglas, niece of Henry VIII and daughter of his sister Margaret.
Due to this they were both sent to the Tower and Thomas died there. However, Margeret was released to Scion House in London. Was she pregnet with Thomas's child (Robert) as supposedly there was a Robert Howard born at the Scion house in 1537?
I cannot find any substantial historic reference to this. Various on-line trees have it but their source seems to be other people's trees.
The archives of the Dukes of Norfolk in England would not confirm it so I don't know the original source of this birth (myth?).
There was a succesion problem which caused their imprisonment as Henry had just bastardized his 2 daughters after his marriage to Jane.
I don't know of any contemporary evidence for a child at all; indeed, Chapuys wrote that he had heard that "copulation had not taken place" between Margaret and Thomas. I suspect the report of a child arose from someone trying to fabricate a royal descent.
ReplyDeleteHenry was very jittery over not having a male heir (yet) and Mary and Elizabeth were out of favour for being their mothers’ daughters, so he was suspicious of anyone making a play for such a near relative as his niece Margaret Douglas.
ReplyDeleteAgnes Tilney was the second Duke of Norfolk’s second wife and their son Lord Thomas Howard (1511–1537) was imprisoned in the Tower with Margaret, but she was moved to more congenial conditions because of recurring illness. Lord Thomas died in the Tower of illness the following year.
Howard men must have held some sort of fatal attraction for Margaret Douglas, as she was in trouble again in 1541 for a similar affair with her late lover’s half-nephew Charles Howard, and had a severe warning not to let it happen again. Charles’s father, Lord Edmund Howard, was from the Duke’s first marriage to Agnes’s cousin Elizabeth Tilney, so Edmund and Thomas were half-brothers. Charles was a full brother of Queen Katherine.
I agree with Susan that this birth at Syon House looks a bit suspicious. I have been working on Agnes Tilney’s involvement with her step-granddaughter Katherine Howard in Lambeth for a long time and have not come across the birth of this supposed grandson of hers at Syon. Are you able to let us know what your source is?
I see the Howards as not needing to fabricate royal descent. Their Arundel and Norfolk titles put them in the oldest and second only peerage to the crown in England. They gave rise to Queen Elizabeth through Anne Boelyn's mother, Elizabeth (a Tilney by descent as well). On the issue of whether there was a son by Margaret Douglas and a Howard man, like everyone else, I can't say. The motivation to fabricate royal descent, I don't believe, was a motive to assert that there was a child. Thanks for this discussion. DLC
ReplyDeleteHas there every been any DNA testing done to determine a connection between Robert and Margaret Douglas?
ReplyDeleteI'll do a DNA test on it. Volunteer..
DeleteI have had my DNA testing done but I am unsure how to link it due to so many generations back
DeleteI do not think there is reason to Not believe that Robert was the son of Thomas Howard and Margaret. They were betrothed and promised each other to each other. A repeating illness was likely morning sickness. I know that with my first child, I was sick daily for months.
ReplyDeleteI have from some reference that the son was named Rowland, not Robert, but I cannot locate any information on him either.
ReplyDeleteI traced my ancestry back to all these people through my paternal side.
ReplyDeleteAdam Shipley xame to America in mid 1600's & married Lois Howard, it's though her lineage I came upon alo this info.
Hello All,
ReplyDeleteI have found a distant cousin Russ Howard In Oregon. His wife Katherine owns the dance studio in Roseburg. He has told me about a book " Providence......Lost...." that describes much.
We don't need to "have" a blood line....but it makes sense that Rowland or Robert was the product of the Secret marriage...More then an Engagment. Reports are that Her Love Sir Thomas Howard had a Older (?) brother with the same first and Last name...and Margaret Gave her baby to him to raise....To save the child's and her life. She reported to have gone often to visit him and raised him to never tell of his paternal Connection or that she was his mother. He had a son.....who had a son....To Matthew Howard...who Immigrated to the New World. One of Matthews Grandchildren married one of Sir Thomas Hinton's grandchildren ( Sir Thomas Hinton was co Founder of Jamestown COLONY......and Other "Howards" married into the HINTON line. Vachel HInton was a PVT in the Virginia Militia during the REVOLUTIONARY War...and was married to his Second Wife ( My 5 x great GM
Good morning from snowy Kentucky! I hope this find you well.
DeleteMy research on the mystery of Robert Howard of Syon House led me to a post you made several years ago. Have you found any evidence in recent years to support the claim some have made that Robert Howard b. 1538 was the secret child of Thomas Howard and Margaret Douglas? My hope to include accurate information in a book I'm writing.
Kind regard,
Stephanie
So that Matthew Howard is my 7th great grandpa.
DeleteIt seems high time to confirm through DNA testing that Matthew Howard was the great grandson of Thomas Howard and Lady Margaret Douglas. A paternal line descendant of Matthew Howard's DNA should confirm if the proper English authoritiy would consent to a DNA test. I have read that his brother Matthew's brother, John Howard, used a seal of the Duke of Norfolk on his will filed in Virginia, which would have been illegal if not authorized to use such seal given the Colonies were under the rule of the King at the time in the late 1600s. John Howard would never have used an illegal seal which could have had the effect of nullifying his well.
ReplyDeleteI know several paternal direct descendants of Matthew Howard, starting with (Eagle) Col John Howard of Merritt Isla
nd Florida.
I decent from this matthew as well..
DeleteI have done DNA testing but I am female with no brothers. I am linked genetically to several Howard's and my line comes from my 3 great grandmother Nancy Howard.
DeleteI also know a male descendant of Matthew Howard. Y-DNA, anyone????
ReplyDeleteI'm a descendant two..hi
DeleteWho are you unknown? I descend from Matthew's son Samuel.
DeleteStephanie, I, too, live in Kentucky, and am writing a book. I have been tracing my lineage to the Howards. Supposedly, I am a descendant of Robert, and the dead-end is very unnerving.
ReplyDeleteStephanie and Jennifer, I too am supposed to be a descendant of Robert Howard. I live in South Carolina. My 2nd great grandmother was Fatima Howard. I traced her backward through the Howard's and got as far as:
ReplyDeleteRobert John Howard
1537–1598
Birth JAN 1537 • London, Middlesex, , England
Death 1598 • Tybbenham, Norfolk, England
I seems that Fatima was the end of my Howard line, if it is correct. I have been told that the Howard line is one of the most difficult lines to prove. I hope someone can verify this about Lord Thomas and Margaret. I have take an Ancestry DNA test. I would love to find someone who is related to me, through this line.
Susan
I am from South Carolina. My 2nd great grandmother was Fatima Howard. Her line led me back to:
ReplyDeleteRobert John Howard
Robert John Howard
1537–1598
Birth JAN 1537 • London, Middlesex, , England
Death 1598 • Tybbenham, Norfolk, England
I was told that the Howard line was one of the hardest to prove. I have taken the Ancestry DNA test and would love to have a match in this line. Please contact me if you show up in my Matches.
Thanks,
Susan
A lot of American Howards would be happy if Edward Fitzalan-Howard would have his DNA tested. Surely someone out there is closely enough related to him to give a sample. For what it is worth, I am a Howard and my DNA is R1b1a2a1a1c1a, Z306 (so says Experimental Tree, can't remember the website but can come up with it if asked). My line stops at King and Queen County, Virginia, in the early 1700's but DNA searches on AncestryDNA keep bringing up allied families to the Virginia and Maryland Howards and what seem to be allied English families. If you hunt around a bit you can find a smattering of information on Thomas H and Margaret Tudor. I remember reading about them in the Calendar of State Papers.
ReplyDeleteCorrection to the above. Margaret Douglas rather than Tudor.
ReplyDeleteI show my Howard line coming from England to Essex, Mass and the places in Virginia.
ReplyDeleteIt seems that the northern Howards and southern Howards are kin. I'm sure there are some Howards who aren't part of the family but I have a suspicion many of the American Howards are related. DNA searches are giving me hints that north and south families are related. For example, one of my DNA matches has an Alden who married a Howard (in Duxbury, MA). John Howard lived with Miles Standish at one point. I figure DNA is going to reveal the relationship between north and south families.
ReplyDeleteMy mother's maternal line has resided in MD (non-stop) since the 1600s. In particular, they have lived on the Severn River/near Annapolis as the first people with land grants that predate the formation of London Town and Providence. The surnames that we have in our family tree on that side include: Cheney, Hatton, Shipley, Ridgely, Brice, Chase, Monroe, Duvall, Wade, Kemp, Collinson, etc...Most of these individuals were expatriated Catholics and Quakers, when they immigrated during the English Civil War. In particular, my great something grandfather Richard Cheney, emigrated in 1649 because he signed a loyalty oath in support of King Charles I. As a distant relative of Elizabeth Cheney (great-grandmother of three wives of Henry VIII), he believed in the "Divine Right of Kings". His descendants living in the Tidewater Region continued (for many generations) to do what they would have done in Great Britain, by intermarrying with other families that had blood connections to the Plantagenets, Stuarts, and Tudor Kings and Queens. Another ancestor who arrived in MD at this time as a "Quaker" was Robert Kemp. A descendent of two Archbishops of Canterbury, he also had direct lines to King Henry III, Roger Mortimer, First Earl of March, the Despencers, Le Strange etc...Through my mother's paternal line, I am a direct descendent of Sir Robert Howard (through Matthew Howard) and Governor Nicholas Greenberry, through Catherine Griffith. The former is believed to be a descendent of Margaret Douglass and Thomas Howard and the latter the illegitimate son of King Charles II. Through this same side of the family, I have another connection to Anne Bolyene through my great something grandmother Sarah Ayer (Puritan side of Family from New England), who had that surname in her family tree. This same line has Sir Thomas Heydon, Catherine Willoughby, the Le Strange Family, Welles, Lancaster, Plantagenet, etc....On that same side of the family, I am also a direct descendent of Sir William Wade, who served on the Board for the Virginia Co of London/Jamestown. All that said, I'm inclined to believe that Sir Robert Howard was in fact the son of Margaret Douglass and Thomas Howard, simply because the descendants of the refugees of the various waves of the English Civil War, continued to intermarry and self identify as "British". They only partially rejected that identity, after the English Crown adopted the Hanoverian line in favor of a "Protestant" monarch over a "Catholic"sovereign with more "Tudor/Stuart/Plantagenet" blood. For what it's worth, I'm normally a Native Americans Studies scholar/historian. I accidentally wondered into this, when I was trying to write an introduction to my book on Eastern Woodland tribes. As I got further into the topic, my ancestors kept rising to the surface and I connected some dots with family genealogies/stories that had been handed down. That said, I haven't even mentioned the other half of my DNA from KY. On that side, I have the Daniel Boone (my great something uncle)/Frances Somerset/John of Gaunt connection controversy. That's another story for another blog!
ReplyDeleteI am a Matthew Howard descendant and have information you may be interested in. Feel free to contact me at debracofer2@gmail.com.
DeleteCynthia, I am very interested in your information. I am descended from Matthew Howard, am related to the Boones and Bryans, and I am inclined to give credence to the Thomas Howard/Margaret Douglas theory. I look like the daughter of Lady Tessa Howard. After looking at numerous portraits of Margaret Douglas at different ages, and comparing them to my great aunt, a Howard, I am amazed at the resemblance. This could all be coincidence, I suppose, but I have found other references to Matthew's line being from the Duke of Norfolk line. I have many, many DNA matches to people on Ancestry.com when I enter names such as Tudor, Plantagenet, Talbot, Stuart, Mowbray, FitzAlan, etc. I will be happy to share what I have with anyone interested. My grandmother was a Howard and that line has been DNA-proven to be Matthew descendants. debracofer2@gmail.com
ReplyDeleteI am direct male line descendant Of Matthew Howard through his son Samuel. My DNA search says I am a close match with Gabriel Howard Matthews grandson through Matthew Jr.
ReplyDeleteCynthia’s news above that Lord Thomas Howard was the illegitimate son of King Charles II is a new lead. Would love to hear the basis for that angle.
I have read that Lord Thomas and Margaret were married under English custom of the time with witnesses and clergy, and lived as husband and wife for six months before king Henry VIII found out and sentenced them to the Tower. That would logically be plenty of time to conceive. I have read their love letters from the tower.
This mystery may be solved when the English side DNA is tested.
Even King Henry I, was the son of William the conqueror, who was th even King Henry I, was the son of William the conqueror, who was by most accounts the illegitimate son of the Duke of Normandy .
Certainly the English Civil War Was a tough time, and plenty of motivation for then English Catholics to leave and come to Virginia. Two of Matthew’s sons sealed their wills with Duke of Norfolk seals, Which is remarkable unrefutable evidence of Matthew’s ancestry. No significant landholding family would violate the kings laws in the 1600s with such acts.
Peter, we are both descendants of Samuel. Did I give you the info on Dr Nicholas Ferguson Howard, Lumpkin County, GA Find-a-Grave site? And Wikipedia-Hampton National Historic Site? Mentions Matthew's gr-grandaughter being related to Carlisle branch of Dukes line.
ReplyDeleteFor those of you who are descended from Matthew Howard, I just moved back to MD and now live within five minutes of the original Howard family land grants in Round Bay. I'm also in the process of finding out the location of the family Cemetary. Apparently, the original colonial houses are long gone, etc...but I spoke with an individual yesterday (who is 85) who was a Howard family member through marriage, lives in Round Bay, and has a rough idea where the houses were/Cemetary is. As for the controversy of Robert Howard's parents, the more research I do on his descendents/the families they married into once they emigrated I'm inclined to believe he truly was the son of Margaret Douglass and Thomas Howard. For instance, I looked into the family of John Norwood Howard (Matthew Howard's grandson and my great something grandfather) and his mother was Susannah Norwood. She's a direct descendent of Sir George Throckmorton. Because of these family tie, she's a relative of Katherine Parr. Like the Howard family, the Norwood s and the families they married into in England during the Tudor Stuart period, were in positions of power, from aristocratic familes, and we're people who refused to step away from the Catholic faith (for many decades after the Protestant Reformation was first introduced in GB).
ReplyDeleteNicholas Greenberry is believed to be the illegitimate son of King Charles II.
ReplyDeleteSusannah Howard (Norwood) is a direct descendent of King Edward III through John of Gaunt,the Nevilles and Elizabeth Vaux. It would have been perfectly acceptable for her to marry a Howard, who was a distant cousin.
ReplyDeleteYou can look up Howard's Inheritance and see the house, which is a listed historic property. Windgate Condominiums also, on original Howard land near Annapolis.
ReplyDeleteThank you! I will take my mother by the house!
DeleteLot's of familiar names to me in these comments. I am a descendant of Matthew Howard, Susanna Norwood and Nicholas Greenberry. It would be nice to get to the bottom of this. On the other side of my family I have DNA links to the 4 Spencer brothers that came over from England in the early 1600s through their father and then to Lady Diana Spencer and Prince William. I have done my Y DNA 111 at Family Tree.org and my autosomal DNA at Ancestry. I keep looking for links that might help but the further back you go the more tenuous those links become.
ReplyDeleteAgain, I wandered into this "saga" purely by accident. At the moment, I'm still relying upon family records and generic online websites (because I'm really supposed to be writing a book on diplomacy with Native Peoples). That said, I've found family graves that had "vanished" through find a grave website and have decorated them.I did have ancestors who arrived for economic reasons (Jamestown beginning in 1610), but others came because of religious persecution (Catholics, Puritans, and Quakers) and many were descended from govn officials/MPS or the "annointed sovereign" -many times over on both sides of my family. The colonies seemed to have become an alternative to the Tower of London for some. I also find it intriguing, that these same exiled families continued to intermarry into the modern age. In reference to a connection to Margaret Douglass through Matthew Howard, if it truly does exist I would just "add it to the pile" of the ones that are already clearly defined through other family members (Jane Seymour,Anne Bolyene, Catherine Parr, Catherine Howard, the Despensers, the Cheneys, Roger Mortimer, Elizabeth Murray (Ham House), Mary Stewart, etc....). I forgot to mention that Katherine Greenberry Howard is also buried in Round Bay (my great something grandmother).
DeleteI was going through my tree and came across:
ReplyDeleteMatthew Howard
1609–1659
Birth 1609 • Wardour Castle, Wiltshire, England
Death 4 SEP 1659 • Anne Arundel, Maryland, United States
Who was he married to and who were his parents? I am comparing my info to all that has been mentioned here.
Also,Robert John Howard?
Robert John Howard
1537–1598
Birth JAN 1537 • London, Middlesex, , England
Death 1598 • Tybbenham, Norfolk, England
I am intrigued by this thread as I believe I am directly descended from Robert Howard (1537 to 1598) who I believe was the issue of Margaret Douglas. Is there a conspiracy to cover up his birth by the Howard family at the time to avoid upsetting the natural order? My great-grandmother was a Howard and lived in Liverpool. It is fascinating to see all these potential relatives in the US. I would love to see a full tree for the Howards, I don't appear to be able to find one on line.
ReplyDeleteI too am a descendant of Matthew Howard, through his son, Samuel, and if Robert Howard was the legitimate son of Lord Thomas and Lady Margaret Douglas, then I descend from John Howard First Duke of Norfolk. I am actually going to visit Arundel Castle in May and am hoping to speak with someone (archivist? Family?) regarding Thomas and Margaret. My line descends down to my grandfather Jefferson Davis Howard of Elliott County, KY
ReplyDeleteI have seen various reports that two of Matthew Howard's sons sealed their wills with the silver seals with the Howard Coat of Arms of the 2nd Duke of Norfolk and have reviewed a copy of this seal. These wills are on file in the Maryland archives and I recall some reference to the seals in the wills. Matthew Howard, Sr. did not leave a will as he died unexpectedly in 1659. Forged seals would been unthinkable by "landed gentry" 110 years before the Revolutionary War. The seals are specifically of the 2nd Duke of Norfolk as it shows the arrow piercing the Scottish Lion which was awarded Duke Thomas as a result of his victory for King Henry VIII at Flodden Field. It is not the seal of Thomas Howard, 3d Duke of Norfolk (Lord Thomas's older brother.) The battle of Flodden Field was the largest battle every fought in England and the result was the death of King James IV of Scotland who was married to Margaret Tudor, King Henry VIII's sister. Upon his death, Margaret married Archibald Douglas 6th Earl of Angus, and gave birth to Margaret Douglas. The marriage of Margaret Douglas to Lord Thomas Howard, the second son named Thomas of 2nd Duke Thomas Howard, was reportedly officiated with witnesses and clergy and was not annulled by King Henry VIII until after 6 months had passed, plenty of time for Margaret to have become pregnant. Given the Howard men for 1000 years have had male heirs and been prolific in producing their heirs, it is highly likely that Margaret Douglas was sent to Syon Abbey for the birth during her "confinement." Often women were sent away to Abbeys during confinement if there were any reason to keep the birth secret. In this case, with King Henry VIII executing many Howards in the Tower, his disentitling many of the Norfolk Howards from their estates which were not restored until the rule of Queen Mary, followed by the rule of King Edward VI, Queen Mary (d. 1558) and then Queen Elizabeth (d. 1603), then King James I (d. 1625) and then English Civil War (1641-1652), the beheading of Charles 1 (d 1649), this was undoubtedly reason to be discreet with the lineage at the time and ample reason to first move to Norfolk Virginia, then to Howard County Maryland. The seals on the wills that are presently in the Maryland archives are convincing and proof that Matthew Howard was an heir of Thomas Howard, 2nd Duke of Norfolk.
ReplyDeleteCertainly, much more research needs to be done to connect Robert Howard, b. 1537 to Lord Thomas Howard & Margaret Douglas. I only recently started looking into this, and there seem to be lots of clues. For example, some state that Robert Howard is believed to have been at Brockdish Hall, which was purchased in 1457 by Sir John Howard, Knight. Interesting facts about Brockdish Hall. It is just 7-8 miles from Framlingham(in Suffolk), which was at one time the home of the Howards Dukes of Norfolk. So, just who was Sir John Howard who bought Brockdish in 1457? I'm not sure, but it is interesting to note that John Howard, the 1st Duke of Norfolk did not become the Duke of Norfolk until 1483; by 1467,he was "Knight of the Body."
ReplyDeleteBrockdish was sold in 1570, when Thomas Howard, Duke of Norfolk obtained permission from Queen Elizabeth to sell it. (Insofar as the sale occurred in 1570, it would appear that the seller was Thomas Howard, 4th Duke of Norfolk.) The buyer was Charles le Grice, who rebuilt the house and had coats of arms of his family and his wife's family built into the windows. As to this windows, I found a footnote describing the arms of the Howard family that was built into at least one window: "Howard of Brockdish, gul. a bend cotized between six cross croslets fitché arg. This family being descended from a younger branch of the Norfolk family, always bare the bend cotized as a distinction." The description is identical to the arms for the Howard Dukes of Norfolk, except for the "bend cotized" which was reportedly used in order to state that the Howards of Brockdish "descended from a younger branch" of the Howard Dukes of Norfolk."
Burkes Family Records show that a Robert Howard married to Phillipa Buxton lived at Brockdish Hall and he had a son named John Howard who along with his wife with the surname Lock had 8 children. It could well be that the owner of Brockdish Hall in 1537 took in Robert Howard to raise and maybe even named the child after himself or his father. Robert then named his son after John Howard who purchased Brockdish and likely was the man who later became the 1st Duke of Norfolk.
ReplyDeleteIt is logical that 1st Duke John Howard was the purchaser of Brockdish Hall as at that time period he had just been given a commission by the King and was purchasing many properties and was heavily involved in the politics of the church and government eventually being one of the closest supporters of King Edward IV and later King Richard III. His land holdings increased significantly over his life and during King Edward's year of hiding when King Henry VI was briefly restored by the Earl of Warwick and Margaret of Anjou to the throne at the time Knight John Howard escaped from England and resided at one of his 16 manors he owned on the mainland (Normandy and Calais) and later purchased many other homes and manors as he ascended in wealth under the York Kings Edward IV and his brother Richard III.
Well, that is really interesting!!!! I will really have to do some more research. Does anyone out there show Fatima Howard of South Carolina in their Howard Line? She shows as my GG Grandmother. I would like to connect her to this line of Margaret Douglas and Lord Thomas Howard. She showed up in my tree, but blank connection. If I follow Thomas Howard descendents, I come up with my Fatima Howard. What was Matthew's full name? He may be my missing connection. Thanks!!
ReplyDeleteTesting comments - just ignore!
ReplyDeleteStephanie is having trouble posting her comment so I'm posting it for her. Her contact info is at the bottom.
ReplyDeleteHello, I hope this finds you all well and safe during this difficult time with Covid19!
I suspect we are all distant cousins. I am curious if any of you have found more leads about the parentage of our Matthew Howard b.1537.
If it is true that he is the son of Thomas Howard and Margaret Douglas we are descendants Margaret’s mother too of course...
Margaret Tudor, was sister to awful Henry VIII and an aunt to young 5 year old Princess Elizabeth in that year of 1537. I think so much about Marge Tudor (I will call her :) And how she must have felt returning from Scotland after her husband the King of Scotland was killed by her brother’s forces Led by Tom Howard at the battle of flodden forcing her (Marge) to leave her first born son James in Scotland. Then to return home to see her brother the king divorce her loving sister-in-law, to marry Ann Boleyn and have baby Elizabeth ... who (at Henry VIII orders) pushes Marge’s older niece Mary out of the line of succession.
Then A little later Marge’s daughter, also a Margaret, Margaret Douglas (I will call her Madge D just for fun as we sort out this mystery), from her next marriage to Archie goes on to fall in love and secretly marry the son of the man who had killed her first husband the King of Scotland for her brother the King of England!
I find myself pondering Queen Elizabeth’s young life too .... at 5 years old her father caused her to lose her close older cousin Madge D and her personal secretary Lord Thomas Howard (Tommy 2). I wonder if she saw MadgeD and Tommy 2 everyday before her father the king discovered their marriage. I wonder if little Elizabeth knew of their marriage in some way before her father even knew. I think of MadgeD and Tommy2 fondly, young, 22 and 27, happy and in love and newly married, possibly playing with Elizabeth as Tommy2 worked out Elizabeth’s correspondence for her.
Little Elizabeth’s mother being beheaded when she was three by her father, and now her secretary Thomas sent to the tower to die when she was five... the same year Elizabeth’s little brother Edward VI was born to a new woman all while her father decides to make Elizabeth illegitimate. What a terrifying impression this must have made on her young mind.
All this in my mind making it even more plausible that Matthew was the child of Tommy2 and MadgeD and that whisking Little Matt away to Brockdish Hall was the only way to save his life.
So many possibilities exist. I often wonder if he was loved and protected by his new parents to the point that they did everything they could to keep him far from reentering court where his identity would endanger his life.
And we think we have troubles! Makes covid look a little more manageable somehow.
Always looking for information that would proved proof or interest to our family that we all share!
My email is sfairchildfister@icloud.com.
Take care and be safe everyone!
You are speaking of Matthew Arundel. Robert was the supposed son of Thomas Howard and Margaret Douglas. His son John is supposed to have married Elizabeth Lock, and they are thought by some to be parents of Matthew Howard b. C1609.
ReplyDeleteThere is nothing at all that supports the theory Margaret Douglas had a child with Thomas Howard and it's a theory that's not really taken seriously (apart from by those who want to grow a tree from it.) I wonder if it's been inspired by the story of Robert Howard and Frances Coke?
ReplyDeleteNot proved nor disproved, like everything connected to Matthew Howard, unfortunately. Interestingly, my great aunt, a Matthew Howard descendant, looks like the old portraits of Margaret Douglas.
ReplyDeleteThere are many facts supporting the theory of a child with Margaret Douglass and Thomas Howard. The were married under the custom of the day and lived as man and wife for 6-9 months before being separated by the King. She was moved from the Tower to an Abbey at the exact time she would have been obviously pregnant and released at the exact time she would have given birth. Howard men were not infertile as i and many other descendants can attest! Robert Howard lived in Brockdish Hall owned by John Howard the Great Grandfather the 1st Duke of Norfolk. John Howard was a knight before buying the Hall and he was known to have purchased a large number of estates prior to his becoming a Duke as he was gaining favor with the King and receiving large commissions or income at the exact time of the purchase. Some accounts give the names of Robert’s nurses as a child and that Margaret visited Robert often and provided income for him, but I haven’t found a way to verify these accounts. All else above is verifiable. Finally Matthew clearly descended from the Duke of Norfolk as he helped found or build In its early stages when nothing more than a few houses supported by a fort and carried silver seals of the Duke of Norfolk Virginia. He and his sons were all deeded much land, died intestate but 2 sons used the silver seals to solemnize their wills. They would never have used the Norfolk seals to secure inheritance rights on such large land tracts if not 100% entitled in those days. Many records were hidden and obscured at the time of King Henry VIII, Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth due to the politics of the Axe. The only way to confirm these facts further are for the present Duke of Norfolk to open the records he has which reportedly he refuses or at some point have DNA tests with any male line descendant, myself included, comparing to John Howard first Duke and Thomas Howard 2d Duke.
ReplyDeleteThank you, Peter!!! I don't give a fig for 'creating" some royal tree, I just want to know where my Howards come from. I am sick of that tired old song.
ReplyDeleteYou are welcome. I just read that one of Matthew’s granddaughters married a wealthy man who built a large mansion I think in Maryland and he told people he was modeling the house on Castle Howard which was owned by his “wife’s relatives.” I agree our interest is understanding our history not taking the Crown from the German family holding it - almost as King Henry VIII feared when he sent Thomas Howard to the Tower believing he was trying to take the Crown for his family by marring Margaret Douglass secretly. This fear of King Henry is also well documented!
ReplyDeleteMy family Howard starts with Nancy Howard whose father was Christopher Howard mother Hannah Johnson. Nancy married John Wesley Byrd and if you look into the beginning of Virginia and the Howard's they were close with the Byrds that also came. Christopher parents were John and Nancy Preston East Howard. John's parents were Phillip Jr and Mary Ann Child. Phillip's dad was Phillip Sr. I have Phillip Sr parents are Samuel and Catherine Warner Howard. Samuel parents are Matthew and Anne Hall Howard. Matthew parents John and Elizabeth Locke Howard. I then have John's parents as Robert and Phillipa Buxton Howard. Does anyone have any family information similar?
DeleteYes I do! My Howard's who went from Anne Arundel county to NC and later to TN. Too much to list here.
DeleteI’ll add I have a biological son. My father had 2 sons. His father had 3 sons. His father had about 6 sons. His father had about 7 sons going back to Matthew Howard who had about 4-5 sons, to Thomas Howard 2nd Duke who had about 6 of 7 sons from 2 wives. The odds of Thomas Howard and Margaret Douglass not having gotten pregnant after living as a married couple for 6-9 months is not likely.
ReplyDeleteNeed to add: My grandfather actually had 4 sons and no daughters, but I also have daughters and the many daughters going back in my family history are equally important in our post England history. My grandfather for example was one of 13 children.
ReplyDeleteI am a descendent of Matthew and I agree with all that Peter has said. I know the Howard men have always been viral. My father had five sons and two daughters. His father had five sons and six daughters. I’d have to go back and look at others to go any further. I do have a family tree from a second cousin who has traced it all the way back to John Howard the father of sir Robert Howard. It doesn’t matter to me that some Refute the fact that Matthew is the son of Robert Howard. Just knowing that possibility amazes me. And I have not seen any evidence to prove otherwise. I haven’t seen anybody else produce parents for Matthew. Would love to see that if somebody has that information that is proven.
ReplyDeleteI am a descendent of Matthew Howard. The line from Elliott Co KY, ...NC, to MD at the Severn, from the Elizebeth River at Lower Chesapeke VA.
ReplyDeleteI realize it was an innocent misspelling,& to Anonymous...I mean no criticism...but I am pretty certain that my line in Elliott was, for a time.indeed viral...
Actually, it was Robert Howard, father of John Howard, and John the father of Matthew.
ReplyDeleteI ran across two 2nd-4th cousins on Family Tree DNA that were interesting. One was a Willoughby and one was a Calvert. There were a few Calvert matches but this one had an ancestor's name, who traced back to the Baltimore family.
ReplyDeleteI an descended from
ReplyDeletesusannah connelly ewing howard
marrying james patterson
susannah is the 3rd great granddaughter
of margaret tudor apparently
yes through robert of syon house directly
robert is my 13th great grandfather
so henry viii would be my 16th great uncle
Family Love to you one and all
ReplyDeleteif we are Distant Cousins
if not then still peace and love to you anyways
Hello
ReplyDeleteI have been continuing to research the Howard line. It all comes back to Margaret and Thomas Howard (2nd) having been married. Marriage was witnessed by a Lady of the Court and by a Servant Named "Hastings" I also found that A "Howard" married into the Hinton (former de hyndon) family. Rachel Howard, married into the Hinton family. Her father was Philip and mother Sarah
Rachel Howard married Thomas Hinton on August 28, 1718, at St. Ann's Parish. Maryland
Then later another Howard woman married into the Hinton line again. Margaret was the first wife married to Vachel Hinton (pvt in Virginia Milita/Rev War)
His second wife was Nancy Roy.
Hello all! In trying to find some answers for this question, I recently emailed the Syon House account and asked about an inquiry into any records of births in 1537, when we all have that Robert was born from Margaret Douglas. I think we all can agree that "She fell ill and was moved to Syon" specifically for just under a year, while still writing to Thomas in the Tower, and then she was "released" the day after he passed away, is extremelly suspicious and the "falling ill" being pregnancy is quite likely. Not only were they living together before Henry VIII found out, but they were held together in the tower of london for YEARS before she was moved for an undisclosed reason and he passed away. A representative from Syon House responded and gave me a different email I can reach out to if I want to pay for a formal search of the records, but I am concerned that if we are all the only ones talking about it, and the "rest of the world" doesnt know, than that is likely because it was hidden on purpose, and if they didnt keep those records, it would be a waste of money to pay for the search? Does anyone on this chat live near Syon that they could go see if they can talk to the records people without paying for a full inquiry? or does anyone have any updates from research that might be able to solidify this? My thought is that if we can prove with syon recoreds, that Robert HOWARD was born at syon in 1537, while Margaret was the only non-nun living there, that should be able to prove the relation back to the relationship.. I like most of you, do not care about the "royal" element, I just want to know where my family is from..
ReplyDeleteThanks,
Amanda.
Hey Amanda,
DeleteId be happy to pay for the research if you forward me the info.
I, like all of you, am also a descendant of the Howard line and would like to know the truth.
GregoryAJackson@Hotmail.com
I also would contribute to the research as a male line descendant of a Matthew. . Peterhoward@howarddevelopment.com
ReplyDeleteHi all, I'm in the UK and just doing my family tree, I'm too from the Howard line and Sir Robert Howard. Would love to know if anyone comes across any further information. I am also trying to dig some more and will post if I come across anything new. When we were growing up my dad would always tell us we were related to the Dukes of Norfolk, when you're young you brush it off. He did have the Howard crest in a frame, it's nice to know he was right.
ReplyDeleteHi, Howard kin. I am a descendant of Matthew Howard in America. I wish someone could prove his parentage before I die!!
ReplyDeleteHi, I am also descended from Matthew the immigrant and would like to know if my research is correct or not. I agree that it doesn't matter to me if there is a royal connection or not, just would like the correct information. Has there been any updates on the Syon house inquiry from Amanda? Very curious. I think the only way to prove anything would be to have the current Duke Edward Fitzalan-Howard take a DNA test which we all know, will never happen. My email is tiffanyh81@gmail.com if anyone wants to compare information, ask questions, or update me on future correspondence. Thank you!
ReplyDeleteMe too
ReplyDelete