Friday, July 12, 2013

Question from Conor - Henry Manox and Kathryn Howard's downfall


I am aware that in May 2011 a question was asked about Henry Manox, but unfortunately the answers did not aid my research.

I have been researching in detail Katherine Howard's downfall, particularly the role of her so-called accomplices aka Jane Rochford, Joan Bulmer, Katherine Tylney etc. All of these women, and other Howard relatives, were charged - in Jane's case, of course, her charge of treason led to her death.

Why was Henry Manox never charged with anything? He had first initiated Katherine into the sexual world while a pre-pubescent girl, and I frankly find it bizarre that he was never punished. It seems he was interrogated in November 1541, alongside Dereham, but then his name never comes up again.

I have been trying to track down written documents which can help, but has anyone got ANY idea of Manox's eventual fate? Why was he never punished?

For all we know, maybe he was murdered or something at the time. Or he could have been married and the interrogators felt it was not worth pursuing, in contrast with Dereham.

It is a mystery.


Laura said...

I haven't seen any documents regarding the decision, but my guess would be that because the Manox thing happened long before Katherine even came to court. Manox had no contact with Katherine even before she came to court, whereas she employed Dereham, despite the previous relationship, and she was obviously having an affair with Culpepper.

Kate said...

Kathryn employed Dereham and Dereham was very verbal about their previus relationship even intimating that he could win her back if the king died. To even speak of the king's death was treason. Jane Rochefort was a notorious court gossip and intreguer and was instrimental in Anne 's death, Both Kathryn and Culpepper swore that their relationship did not go beyond flurtation althugh he said it would have if left to their own divices. Mannox had warned Henry sometime before his marraige to Kathryn that she was not a "good woman" and revealed his relationship with her for which he was banished form court for some time and ordered not to repete himself. He didn't and most likely his early warning and statements saved him as being the only truthful person to the king

Marilyn R said...

‘Mannox had warned Henry sometime before his marraige to Kathryn that she was not a "good woman" and revealed his relationship with her for which he was banished form court for some time and ordered not to repete himself.’

I don’t want to seem negative towards your comment, but having researched Katherine for a number of years (see and also having previously corresponded with Conor Byrne about her, I would be interested in the source of your information on Manox. If you found it online it is a good example of taking what you read with a very large pinch of salt and the need to check the veracity of such a statement against known facts before passing it on.

You say that Manox ‘warned’ the King, but Henry Manox was not of sufficiently high status to be having private chats with God’s Anointed, especially about the latter’s private life. Things like that just did not happen. Access to the King was very limited, even for the nobility, and what was so upsetting for Henry about Culpeper is that he was one of his closest and most trusted companions who served in his private apartments.

Now if you were to say that someone in Culpeper’s situation had access to the King it would have been possible, but nobody in their right mind would have dared to confront him with bad news about a woman in whom he was showing an interest – remember also that even the Archbishop of Canterbury was too afraid to verbally spell out the news of Katherine’s misdemeanours brought to him by John Lascelles, and gave Henry a letter instead. Apart from all that, there is no evidence that Manox ever went to court – he was a nobody, so why would he?

What Manox did do in a fit of pique when Katherine threw him over for Francis Dereham was to leave a letter on the Dowager Duchess of Norfolk’s pew in St Mary’s Church in Lambeth telling her that if she went to the girls’ dormitory at Norfolk House, where her step-granddaughter Katherine and other girls in her care slept, she would be shocked at what was going on. He did this out of jealousy and spite to get Katherine and Dereham into trouble, rather than to save Katherine from herself, and it was well before she came to Henry’s attention.

To put it bluntly, although Manox had groped Katherine he had not had intercourse with her, and although we today might accuse him of being a child abuser, in those days the boundaries were much less clearly defined. Her relationship with Dereham was a different matter altogether, and who knows what really went on between Katherine and Culpeper?