Justin Pollard, writing in this month’s BBC History Magazine, says that Oliver Cromwell’s ancestor Morgan ap Williams “was the son of Joan Tudor, a woman who was probably the illegitimate daughter of Jasper Tudor". I have not heard this before – is it likely that Joan was Jasper’s daughter?
[See below for a previous thread that included info on a rumor of an illegitimate daughter of Jasper. - Lara]
http://queryblog.tudorhistory.org/2008/11/question-from-sam-jasper-tudor-and.html
3 comments:
I did come across this rumor in Hilary Mantel's Wolf Hall, but I don't know what the substantiation is. Some of the old 19th-century sources say that Morgan ap Williams' father served in Jasper's household, which at least lends credible proximity to the tale.
However, Ralph Alan Griffiths, who wrote an authoritative and monumental study of Henry VI, firmly squelches any notion of the existence of either Joan or Helen/Ellen Tudor (Bishop Stephen Gardiner's alleged mother, a more widely reported rumor that also finds currency in Mantel's novel), Jasper's putative daughters:
"[Henry VI's] tiresome preaching may have had particular effect on his half-brother, Jasper, whose upbringing was strictly controlled for a time by King Henry, and who did not marry until he was in his mid-fifties - or produce any illegitimate offspring." (Griffiths, The Reign of King Henry VI)
If the rumored relationship between Oliver Cromwell and Joan Tudor could be dated to the 17th century, perhaps it could have developed as a natural consequence of Cromwell's rise to power, since people often attribute outstanding achievements by a commoner to his or her "secret" royal ancestry or dynastic connexions. Napoleon had all sorts of people drawing up noble genealogies for him after he came to prominence, and you see a remnant of the practice even today, with American presidents being freshly "discovered" to be sixth cousins 14 times removed of the queen of England, or something.
Thanks for that, Foose. I haven't been able to find out anything else myself.
You are welcome! I looked all over too and found not even a whisper of any "Joan Tudor" except in Mantel's novel and the Pollard article (which I have not seen). Where Oliver Cromwell's ancestry is discussed, earlier commentators seem to be most interested in him being related remotely to the Stuart dynasty (I guess it provided an intriguing ironic twist to the execution of Charles I.)
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